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Home » Current Events

Osama bin Laden Is Dead: Astrological Reactions Around the Web

Posted by on Monday, May 2 201159 Comments

Osama bin Laden Is DeadPresident Obama announced late last evening that US Special Forces had succeeded in killing Osama bin Laden at his order. We will provide more extensive commentary soon, but we thought in order to provide a timely post, we would summarize some of the reactions from the astrological community, which mostly consist of peculiar but intriguingly astrological coincidences:

I’m sure others have made some of the same observations, and there may be others I didn’t see, but I grabbed these off Facebook statuses as the news was breaking out around the web.

  • Astrologer Meredith Garstin: May 1, 1945 – World War II: A German newsreader officially announces that Adolf Hitler has “fallen at his command post in the Reich Chancellery fighting to the last breath against Bolshevism and for Germany”. How karmic this day.
  • Astrologer Moses Siregar: Here’s one for the astrology peeps. The Mission Accomplished speech by Bush was 5/1/03. Obama’s speech on Osama bin Laden’s death, 8 years later on 5/1/11.
  • Astrologer Chris Brennan: White House had intelligence briefings April 19 and 28, then the order to move forward with the operation was on the 29th. It was that whole Aries pileup. The 29th was the day that the Moon ingressed into Aries, completing the lineup.

There is somewhat of a problem regarding not only the birth time but even the birth date of Osama bin Laden. The source page on astro.com’s database is a mess, and there are accounts of bin Laden having been born on March 10th 1957 or October 3rd 1957. Amazingly, even though bin Laden has been big news since 9/11, this issue appears to not be cleared up so we are refraining from any specific commentary on transits to a natal chart until a birth date has been verified.

Still, the observations of these astrologers is worth considering. Surely with an accurate birth chart, the recent pileup of planets in Aries would have to figure in with the events leading up to his death. The connection of this event to the “Mission Accomplished” gaffe is very interesting due to 8 years being the synodic return of Venus. Venus seems to offer chances of redemption of a particular person or topic. The Paris Peace Accords that ended the Vietnam War were signed nearly 8 years to the day that President Johnson escalated the Vietnam War. The recent UN-led attacks on Libya happened 8 years to the day of the unilateral American invasion of Iraq, perhaps redeeming the principle of humanitarian intervention and international cooperation. In this case, the “Mission Accomplished” that wasn’t accomplished finally was accomplished, in some sense, 8 years to the day later.

As for the date of Hitler’s death and it’s connections to bin Laden’s death, there are further intriguing connections beyond the position of the Sun being the same. On May 1st 1945, Venus was at 17 Aries (retrograde), conjunct Mercury at 17 Aries. On May 1st 2011, Venus was at 13 Aries, conjunct Mercury at 15 Aries. The only determinable Mercury-Venus cycle I am aware of are periods of 40 years, although perhaps something else is going on here. Send us more of your observations as we sort out bin Laden’s birth data.


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Patrick is an astrologer originally from High Wycombe, England. His personal practice is based on a blend of ancient and modern astrology. He is a member of the Association for Young Astrologers.




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59 Comments »

  • Jozef says:

    Obama’s Mars is conjunct the US Neptune at 22 degrees Virgo. The most significant connection is the transiting Mars/Jupiter conjunction at 22 degrees of Aries is making an exact quincunx to the US natal Neptune and Obama’s natal Mars. This to me speaks to the continuing religious (Neptune) violence (Mars) that President Obama will continue to find himself embroiled in.

    The violence (Mars in Aries) based on principles worth fighting for (Jupiter in Aries) in quincunx to Obama’s Mars and the US Neptune say to me that this revenge on Bin Laden will bring about more surprise attacks (quincunx) and more violent attacks that may be chemical in nature (Neptune/Mars) based on the perception by many in America, and many in the middle east that this is a religious war. And it is.

  • Lorenzo dello Smerillo says:

    Hi, Patrick, just some observations on the time of the announcement of taking out Osama bin-Laden.

    Beginning of Potus-44 announcement of the elimination of Osama bin-laden, son of the suicide Mohammad;
    1 May 2011, 23.35 EDT, White House, WDC.
    As of writing the time of the take down is unknown; apparently it was earlier the same day in Abbottabad, Pakistan.

    To give some idea of the day and moment, firstly the transiting indicators and how they are combined with other solar system symmetries.

    SO 11.24 TA = ASC 26.20 SG = JU/NE 26.37 = MA/NE 26.52

    MO 28.48 AR = SO/ME 28.39 = NE/AS 28.30 = SO/MC 29.37

    SO/MO 26.48 TA ~ 9NE/PL 4.01 ~ SA/NE 21.15

    ASC 26.20 SG = SO

    MC 17.49 LI = VE/JU 17.56 = MA/SA 17.28 = JU/SA 17.12 = PL/MC 27.36

    A/M 22.05 SC = PL 7.22 CP = SA/UR 7.23

    VX 8.06 LE = ME/NE 23.16

    SO/MO\\A/M 13.06 = UR/NN 13.27

    and of the day:

    ME 15.52 AR = MO/UR = VE/MC = NN/VX = NE

    VE 13.17 AR = MA/UR = ME/SA

    MA 23.04 AR = MA/JU = MO/MC

    JU 22.34 AR = MO/ME = SO/UR = PL/VX

    SA 11.50 LI = MO/NN = ME/PL

    UR 2.47 AR = SA/NN

    NE 0.34 PI = ME = MA/PL

    PL 7.22 CP = A/M

    NN 24.07 SG = NE/MC = SO/VX = (VX)

    Now to compare this to POTUSA 30 apr 1789, 12.45 LMT NY, N-Y
    The most obvious combination is the nearly exact -90- of tJU 22.34 to rJU 22.55 CN
    after the Solar return of yesterday.

    tSO 11.24 TA >>> POTUSA SO 10.44 TA

    tMO 28.48 AR >>> POTUSA SO/MO 13.36 GE = ME/VE 28.41

    tSO/MO 5.06 TA >>>POTUSA SA 20.4 = NE/PL 20.16 [= t NE/PL 4.01]

    tASC 26.20 SG >>> POTUSA ME/ASC 26.44 = UR/MC 26.52 [ POTUSA SO/MO\\A/M 27.07 GE]

    tMC 17.49 LI >>> POTUSA MA/NE 17.29 = SO/PL\\JU/PL 17.58 AR

    tA/M 22.05 SK = tPL >>> POTUSA …MC 22.44 TA = ME/SA 7.26

    tVX 8.06 LE >>>> POTUSA SA/PL\\A/M 7.49 = MO/ASC 7.24 = MO/NN 22.21 = JU/MC 22.50 = ME/PL 21.58

    tSO/MO\\A/M 13.06 AQ >>>> SO/MO\\A/M 27.07 GE

    tME 15.52 AR >>> POTUSA SO/AR 15.22 = SO/SA 15.24 = UR/AR 0.30GE

    tVE 13.17 AR >>> POTUSA MA 13.32 = ASC 28.40 = NN 28.33 = NN/ASC

    tMA 23.04 AR >>> POTUSA MO/UR 23.34 = VE/MA 23.03 [ME 24.48AR]

    tJU 22.34 AR >>>> POTUSA JU 22.55= JU/NE 7.10 = MA/UR 7.16 = ME/VX 7.50

    tSA 11.50 LI >>> POTUSA VE/SA 11.19 = ME/AR 12.24 = JU/AR 26.27 = NE/AR 25.42 = VX/AR 25.26

    tUR 2.47 AR >>> POTUSA SO/MC 16.44 = MO/SA 18.06

    tNE —-see ME—-

    tPL 7.22 CP >>> POTUSA MC 22.44 = ME/SA 7.26

    tNN 24.07 SG —see VX—

    ————-

    There may be some who would want to see the presence of NE in this and especially the tME-45-NE, the presence of MA/NE, etc., as signs of some conspiracy or secret coven of illuminati operating in darkest conjunction with the forces of the fixed stars as evidence of deep and dark designs. One need only remind them that this operation was on this day a secret, Black Ops and therefore, what ever do you expect to see? Easter bonnets on bunnies?

    The high instance of contacts to the Angles of the POTUSA chart, the contacts further to the SA/MO and SO/MO\\A/M points for this announcement would seem to be very positive indications that we are dealing here with an event of country-wide importance for the whole government, and that the transit to the radix chart confirm the validity of the radix.

    Further this is the chart of the ANNOUNCEMENT NOT THE CHART OF THE ELIMINATION OF bin-Laden. Those events are as yet un-detailed and until they are it would be silly to expect to see much about that event in this chart which is a chart detailing an event which can only be described as “news, message, communication”– which is exactly what DID happen, within the limits of the non-revelation of security information.

    One final observation:

    the cluster VE = ME/SA = VE/SA = JU/UR =MA/UR being on the POTUSA MA=ASC=NN would have indicated to me that this was a good moment to use violent force victoriously to kill (VE/SA) and enemy. It’s a GO. And the the JU-90-JU is just about as nice as nice gets.

    feliciter.

  • Hal says:

    Just a slight correction:

    Hitler died April 30, 1945, one day after marrying Braun (which makes one wonder the how and the why Prince William chose Hitler’s wedding date, and how the Queen could have approved it since she lived through the war). Hitler’s date of death can be confirmed by many sources, one of which is wikipedia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler

    Warm regards and keep up the good work.

  • Kristina says:

    I would guess the latter date of 10/3/57 to be his birthdate.  And here are my reasons;

    1)  He was said to have been “quiet, gentle and polite” in his young years which matches his Libra Sun, Mars, and Jupiter. 
    2)  This would put his Sun, Venus, and Mars all in fall/detriment.
    3)  His Mars under the beams of the sun would suggest hidden aggression.
    4) He is known through his speeches, a strong Mercury in Virgo.
    5)  TSaturn conjunct his Sun, Mars, Jupiter in Libra.
    6)  TPluto square his Libra placements.
    7)  The current lineup in Aries opposing his Libra placements.
    8)  And the BIGGEST reason I believe would be TMars would have then been opposing his Sun.  He was shot (Mars) in the head (Sun).

    Merely speculation though. 

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Hi Hal,

    Thanks very much for that. Something else that is sort of tantalizing is the fact that Saddam Hussein was born April 28th 1937. Combine that with the unfortunate events associated with and including Hitler’s birth around April 19th-20th, and we seem to be looking at the first decan of Taurus as being fairly unfortunate.

    Patrick

  • Jozef says:

    Patrick; I would hesitate to call the last decan of Taurus “unfortunate” and would consider that an oversimplification. I assure you that there are many born in that decan who are good and very conscious people. I think it is far more useful to try to understand how the Cap decan of Taurus functions and how those particular not so nice people appeared to have been living out the shadow of the Cap decan of Taurus and not a reflection of the overall color of that shade of Taurus.

    Just my thoughts

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Kristina,

    Those are some interesting points, especially 5-7. One of the biggest things that makes me think March 10th 1957 are the recurrences on 9/11.

    Osama’s Sun at 19 Pisces was 5 degrees past a square with Saturn at 14 Sagittarius. On 9/11, the Sun opposed Osama’s Sun at 18 Virgo, 4 degrees past a square with Saturn at 14 Gemini, opposite Osama’s natal Saturn. This wouldn’t just be any old Sun-Saturn square recurrence, because it is happening at the Saturn half-return at the same time, and has nearly imitated the exact natal arc between the two planets a la Robert Blaschke’s phase angle returns, a more specific perspective on recurrence transits.

    Additionally, Osama was born with Mars conjunct the South Node, on 9/11, Mars was conjunct the South Node.

    If Osama was born in March 1957, his Saturn Return would have occurred in December 1986. In that time it was reported that bin Laden set up the first prototypical Al Quaeda camp to train the Mujahideen to fight against the Soviets, even though Al Qaeda wasn’t officially formed until August 11th 1988 (Sun at 18 Leo, Venus at 18 Leo on 9/11). If Osama’s Saturn Return coincided with the first formation of a group like Al Qaeda then the fact that 9/11 was his Saturn half-return is quite fitting.

    If Osama was born in October 1957, we lose all these recurrence transit connections, or the Saturn return/half-return events are off by several months. More work has to be done on this, but at this point I’m leaning towards March 1957.

    Patrick

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Hi Jozef,

    I wasn’t saying that authoritatively. I agree, it would be an oversimplification, of course great and terrible things have happened at all times of the year. I was speaking more in reference to the talk that has gone on about unfortunate events associated with April 19th to April 20th. See here. I’m not particularly sure what can account for these coincidences. Even astrologers who have to do a lot of pattern recognition in their work have to make sure that they are not making jigsaw puzzles fit where they’re not supposed to. I was just whimsically and bemusedly suggesting that this window of misfortune applies to the first decan of Taurus based on this anecdotal evidence, but that isn’t saying I actually take these coincidences too seriously yet.

    Patrick

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Jozef,

    In regards to what you wrote, I’m still very iffy on whether the quincunx is really an aspect that we should take seriously based on its lack of a basis in a whole number division of the circle. I propose the only aspect across the so-called quincunx signs we should consider are the antisicia/contra-antiscia relationships across Aries-Virgo, Libra-Pisces, Cancer-Sagittarius, Capricorn-Gemini. I explain my position on quincunxes in a long comment under this post if you’re interested.

    The Mars-Jupiter conjunction is very telling in general of the mood about the killing. People feel justice was done because of this death, a righteous killing. That’s very Mars-Jupiter-y to me. It could just as easily describe the feelings of revenge for this death as it does the jubilation about it, as well as the notion of “religious war” so the “quincunx” to the US Neptune is in my mind, irrelevant. I presume you’re using the Declaration of Independence for the US chart, I still haven’t completely sorted out my thoughts on that issue, there are good arguments to go around. Still, it does intrigue me that Mars was square Neptune at the signing of the Declaration of Independence. The US is historically characterized by a persistent strain of resistance against conformity. The fact that Obama’s Mars is conjunct the US Neptune and square the Declaration Mars perhaps says something about the charges of communism and socialism against him as well as the delusional nature of these anger-fueled accusations. It will be interesting to see what the Republican field will be accusing him of when Mars goes retrograde at 22 Virgo next January as the 2012 primaries begin.

    Patrick

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Lorenzo,

    Thanks for the observations. It’s a bit hard to read and understand the shorthand you use, and I prefer to narrow down things to just one or two astrological factors, if I’m not mistaken you’re even looking at the midpoint between Pluto and the Vertex? That’s your style I guess. Anyway, yes, those are some interesting connections to the chart of the office of the Presidency, thanks.

    Patrick

  • Jozef says:

    Patrrick; thank you for your comments. I would say to you that the astrological value of a quincunx is anything but “iffy.” It shows up repeatedly in death charts and natally in charts of many who have a particular gift or affliction around the planets concerned. I use the quincunx as well as the quintile and septile series aspects and if you spend anytime studying them you will find that they are not to be ignored or dismissed.

    I have a sizable database of autistic children and teens, and the quincunx (as well as the 5th and 7th harmonic aspects) are always there. These aspects are not well understood because they are not well studied, but if you take the time to look into them on your own you will be hard pressed to not see the reality of their effects.

  • Jozef says:

    Patrick, one more thing; The dominant planetary picture for May 1 2011 are the 6 planets in Aries. And the dominant planets – and tightest aspect by orb – would be the Mars/Jupiter conjunction at 22 degrees Aries. What makes this even more compelling is that the planetary picture of Mars/Jupiter in Aries is the exact archetypal description of the huge event of that day, which was the assassination of Bin Laden.

    Now if astrology works – and of course if does – there would have to be a strong connection between the charts of the US, Obama and Osama and this Mars/Jupiter in Aries conjunction. That the aspect between planets in this major event and the chart of the president as well as the country is a quincunx, as well as the tightest aspect to both charts, should indicate to you that this is a major aspect. And even if you thought the quincunx “iffy” on April 30th you should reevaluate your perspective on its importance based on astrological facts of that day.

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Jozef,

    Although I have not incorporated the quintile or septile with any regularity into my observations, I can not deny their plausible theoretical basis. The quintile and septile are based on divisions of the circle by 5 and 7 respectively. To get the quincunx you have to divide the circle by 2.4. This makes the quincunx not only unlike the traditional aspects but also unlike the non-traditional and minor aspects which are all based on divisions of the circle by whole numbers. I think the quincunx is a lack of connection, not a type of connection. It can only be mitigated by antiscia relationships or perhaps through translation of light via the Moon. Aspects in western astrology originally had visual connotations from the perspective of a planet, that a planet can “see” another planet. The only two aspects considered to be situations where planets can not see each other is the “semi-sextile” and the “quincunx”, they were said to be in aversion or ignorant of the other. Interestingly enough, it’s hard to see something just outside your peripheral vision without moving your eyes, and we actually have a blind spot in our eyes that approximates a quincunx relationship, see it for yourself here.

    Another issue I have is what exactly would a quincunx mean? The meanings of aspects are tied back to the order of planets from the Sun, the adjacent aversion is Mercurial, the sextile is Venusian, the square is Martial, etc. I suppose the quincunx (as well as the opposition) would be Saturnine, but one of Saturn’s significations is ignorance. This makes it harder for me to say what the quintile and septile might mean, although they could possibly be determined through numerology, since there seem to be some general correlations between what numerology says about numbers and what astrology says about the aspects that are based off those numbers. Numerology only deals with whole numbers though. What exactly would numerology have to say about 2.4? You’ve said it could be gift or affliction around the planets concerned. Well, which is it? Like the traditional aspects, we have to be able to say, is it an easy, consonant aspect or is it a challenging, dissonant aspect? What does it have to do with autism? How do these aspects function in people who are not autistic? And how is it distinguished from the quintile and septile, since you seem to be lumping them in together when really they are in different categories? What is the hypothesis, what kind of things should I expect to see if I look into them? I hope I’m not coming off too combative here, these are legitimate questions we should grapple with I think, otherwise anything goes.

    Patrick

  • Kristina says:

    Hi Patrick:)
    Interesting observations. Although I don’t see anything going on with the 3/10 chart that would signify an event of this magnitude. I am wondering, Is there a reason you have deduced the options to these two dates?

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Jozef,

    I don’t contest the idea that the Mars-Jupiter conjunction is the most descriptive planetary picture of the event, and the importance of the preponderance of planets in Aries is not lost on me. In fact what I find really interesting is that there is a 190-year cycle for Mars and Jupiter, where Mars and Jupiter will end up in the same area of the zodiac in the same relationship to the Sun. 190 years ago, on May 5th 1821, another tyrant called Napoleon Bonaparte died. His death was greeted with a collective sigh of relief from the British, and they were accused of assassinating him. Like in 2011, there were several planets in Aries: Mercury, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. Weird huh?

    I hesitate upon making making statements about charts that I’m not sure are actually correct, especially when using aspects that are not based on whole numbers. We do have a chart for Obama though, and there are several interesting features there that I’d like to point out in a future post once I’ve collected my thoughts on this event and done more research. I’ll reevaluate my perspective on the quincunx when it has a compelling theoretical basis and a discernable meaning.

    Patrick

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Kristina,

    Thanks. For the May 1st 2011 transits against the March 10th 1957, I’m still working on that. Death transits aren’t so obvious even with a birth time We have to be mindful though that we will be working without a birth time, and the pileup of transits through Aries could have been happening over an angle that we just don’t have a way of knowing about for sure. We will need to construct a timeline of events and compare them against the two dates to find out which one is really working.

    The options are March 10th 1957 and October 3rd 1957 because those are the two conflicting dates that I have found out about for bin Laden’s birth, I didn’t deduce anything. Are there more?

    Patrick

  • Kristina says:

    I do find it interesting that in the 3/10 chart Mars is ruled by Venus which is in it’s exaltation and making a sextile to Mars, but in the 10/3 chart Mars, Jupiter, and the Sun are ruled by Venus which is in it’s detriment. 10/3 looks more like Bin Laden in my opinion, but I may be wrong..

  • Jozef says:

    I believe that the only way to become a real astrologer is to get beyond what we have read somewhere else and let what we have learned inform what we see now. All great science and art comes from those who looked beyond what they were taught and into what is in front of them now. And they stop trying to conform their observations to what they think they know to be true, and instead let their observations inform them of what is really true.

    The charts are there. The archetypes are there. The quincunx is there. I don’t care what any dead astrologer says about it now. It is there, and an astrologer has to observe it and consider it. Again; if this event does not inform our understanding of a quincunx we are not paying close enough attention. At some point we must put down our books and look to the sky with our eyes wide open, and then believe what we see and know, even if – and especially if – it makes us reconsider what we thought was true.

    The truth of what a quincunx means is right there in this combined planetary picture, and everything else we may have heard is merely someone else’s opinion. New data frequently will yield a new conclusion, and usually a better and truer one at that.

    Take care.

  • Kristina says:

    Yeah, read the source notes on Osama Bin Ladens page at Astro.com. He was born supposively during the Islamic year of 1377 AH, which starts on July 29 1957 and ends July 17 1958. There are a few possible dates including an anonymous message from a possible wife giving the date of 10/15/49. A February date is also possible, as well as the 3/10/57 and 10/3/57 dates.

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Kristina,

    Oy vey my head hurts now.

    Patrick

  • Jozef says:

    Astrologer Karen Hamaker Zondag gives March 10, 1957 at 10:58 AM BAT in Jiddah, Saudi Arabia, and has allegedly seen his birth record.

    The article is on the ISAR site @ http://www.isarastrology.com/index.php/journal/articles-mainmenu-40/67-members-articles/47-osama-bin-laden

    Hope this helps

  • Kristina says:

    We may never know, but the fact that this happened as Mars was ontop of Jupiter in Aries supports astrology well:) How could anyone deny it? Justice through military action.

  • Kristina says:

    Looks like you were right, Patrick:) Sorry to confuse with my assumptions!

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Jozef,

    I am not opposed to new discoveries and insights, I welcome them and I seek them out. New developments in science and art first come from building on what already exists, that is what allows you to go beyond. Einstein said “If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.” It is important to understand the origins of concepts like aspects and understand how they have changed through time. I have come to a more Kepler-like understanding of aspects which is more geometry-based, but I have done that with the knowledge of the Hellenistic understanding of aspects which is far more sign-based. I think this shows the difference between just reporting something that I read versus critically thinking about something that I read, so I reject your insinuation that I am just parroting dead astrologers. I find the geometrical basis of aspects, in terms of equal divisions of the circle, to be very compelling. This has also led me to understand that the quincunx is fundamentally different from all other aspects because it is not based on a division of a whole number. Even if you were to understand it as the 6th or 8th iteration/extension of the 12th harmonic, it is still very weak because all of the other iterations would already be resonating with the more primal harmonics, 2, 3, 4, and 6 respectively. It would be like looking at the 17th partial of the overtone series, it may naturally exist as part of the overtone series of a single note, but when brought back into the same octave as the root note it would be extremely dissonant and otherwise bears little relation to it.

    I would still like to hear a concise and cogent explanation of what the relationship between two planets in quincunx is like from your perspective.

    I have to laugh when you say this: ” At some point we must put down our books and look to the sky with our eyes wide open, and then believe what we see and know, even if – and especially if – it makes us reconsider what we thought was true.”

    You may have noticed if you’ve read some of the other articles on this blog, that we have a particular focus on recurrence transits, and viewing transits in context of their cycles. The quincunx is simply the midway point between an opposition and a trine between a planet. I have spent several years now examining transits in this fashion, looking at one topic or person and its development through its phases from conjunction to conjunction. What’s amazing is how something that starts at a conjunction develops in a logical way through these phases. Any phase is just a snapshot of the planet of where it was in its cycle, so to understand where it’s really coming from you have to look at the developments that occurred under each aspect, and it usually heads back to the previous conjunction. Even conjunctions relate back to previous conjunctions. From what I have noticed, the aspects that really stand out are the hard aspects. The conjunction, the opposition and the square, in that order. Sextiles and trines also reveal developments in a given topic but I have not noticed a terrible amount for the semi-sextile and the quincunx. And I have looked. I invite you to fill in the blanks where I couldn’t find much (http://politicalastrologyblog.com/2009/01/12/rod-blagojevich-a-tale-of-saturn-and-uranus/) or (http://politicalastrologyblog.com/2009/01/15/saturn-neptune-and-the-obama-family/). So the reason I laugh is because you’re trying to put me in a box that really doesn’t fit. I AM looking at the sky with my eyes wide open, and I already have reconsidered what I learned from a book was true: that quincunxes are aspects. It’s your perspective that is old and dusty, not mine.

    Take care as well,

    Patrick

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Whhaaaat, thanks Jozef! I’ll definitely check this out.

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Kristina,

    Well we’ll have to see, I have yet to go through this. Don’t apologize, you can direct your full observational powers on this new chart if this is the one…

  • Jozef says:

    I meant you no disrespect Patrick. If you read my comment again you will notice that I said “WE” and not “You” because I consider us all to be students at one level or another. I don’t argue with what happens between planets. When you break it down to its essence, regardless of zodiac, culture, system or orientation astrology is about the planets themselves and the relationships between them. This was Ebertin’s approach and it is why his writings on the basic relationships between planets (regardless of signs or zodiac) has stood the test of time as a modern classic on astrology.

    Just because someone wrote something down a thousand years ago does not mean it is always true. The masters were masters because they questioned the status quo and weren’t afraid to report something that disagreed with what the culture held as true. Quintiles and septiles were not widely used by the ancients because they couldn’t see them easily in 12 segment zodiac; not because they weren’t there.

    The best way I could express to you what a quincunx means is less about its 12th harmonic quality and more about the fact that it sits between a 5th and a 7th harmonic aspect (the biquintile and the triseptile) and this makes it a very unstable aspect because it is passing between these stronger harmonics. That is why I associate it with surprise, periphery and something that you can feel more than you can see. If you look at it in light of the events of April 30th you will see that it indeed represents these characteristics in relation to its aspect to Obamas Mars and the US Neptune.

    My mentor is an expert in classical astrology and I have read most of the classic books on western astrology. But I have learned most of the important things from observing the effects of what is in the sky with what happens on earth, both in studying history and world affairs as well as in the charts of my clients. All of the astrological symbols are archetypes and they are multivalent and not always clearly understood; but you cannot argue with the correlation with an event in the sky that corresponds with an event on earth. This is the only real astrology in my opinion.

    I credit Rick Levine with helping me see the relationship between a quincunx and the 5th and 7th harmonic aspects. But mostly it is by observation that I have grown to understand its importance. I find it intellectually weak to not consider the quincunx by transit to the charts I mentioned because it is by far the strongest aspect to either chart.

    Thank you for your comments.

  • Patrick Watson says:

    I think we are in agreement more than we are in disagreement. I’m not a traditional blowhard. I was first introduced to astrology via modern astrology, then I was dissatisfied by that and Hellenistic was really my thing, and as elegant a system as it is, I realized there had to be a general astrological phenomenon that forms astrological traditions, I’m trying to get to the essences in a similar way Ebertin was. Not so much through midpoints but through phase analysis. Nick Dagan Best and Chris Brennan were/are my friends and mentors. Technically, we all contribute to this blog, I just happen to contribute the most frequently. Anyway, theoretically I don’t find a particularly strong harmonic foundation for the quincunx, and so it is unlike all other aspects in that respect. Aside from that, I don’t really see it in action in my studies in phases, so I guess it’s my word against yours. Anyway, thanks for commenting.

  • Jozef says:

    No problem Patrick; I met Nick and Chris at UAC in 2008, in fact they AYA sponsored an event I was involved in and Chris, and Meredith (especially Meredith:) were very helpful. I think it is good to discuss these things even though it can be difficult on the internet. It is so easy to come across the wrong way or to be misunderstood.

    Again, I apologize if my tone offended you. I respect all astrologers of all traditions and I have been very blessed to have met and studied with many of my hero’s. But in the end we must leave the path and find our way, even if (and especially so) what we are learning is in conflict with what we were taught.

    Many blessings to you my friend.

    Jozef

  • Patrick Watson says:

    No harm done. I’m not a traditional blowhard, but I can be a blowhard I guess haha. I dish it out but I can take it too. Thanks.

    Patrick

  • Kristina says:

    I think we still need to be careful in claiming 3/10/57, 10:58 am as the official birthdate and time. Maybe it is, maybe not. I see it has spread around the web with no question of legitimacy. It seems to me this could be just hearsay. How could the the third month and tenth day of the Islamic year be the same as our third month and tenth day? There are lots of dates to work with in his biography. Anyways just wanted to put that out there:) It’d be interesting to hear what you come up with with this chart.

  • Patrick Watson says:

    One of the biggest stories of the year WOULD have to happen while I’m entrenched in writing final papers and preparing for final exams! Yeah after going through and re-reading the astro.com source page I’m now less convinced that this date and time is absolutely the right one. We’re going to need a fairly thorough chronology of events in his life to be anywhere near certain.

  • Jozef says:

    One more thing; If you look at the March 10 1957 nativity with the transits and progressions of 9/11 it is a pretty compelling astrological picture.

  • Jozef says:

    Hey Kristina; did you check the out the link to the ISAR article?

    Karen Hamaker-Zondag is a well respected astrologer, author and teacher, and ISAR is one of our best Astrology Institutions. I don’t think an astrologer with her pedigree would post bogus data.

    I have sent an email to her and the woman who wrote the article.

    Due to the credibility of these sources I think you have to take this data as AA until proven otherwise.

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Hey Jozef,

    You’re probably the millionth person to email Karen haha. I was going to email her too, but if you read the source notes on astro.com (http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bin_Laden%2C_Osama) you can see she’s responded to this question already and it’s a huge long chain after that of people trying to verify the date and coming up with more dates. Let us know if she gives you anything new though.

    Patrick

  • Kristina says:

    Patrick,
    Focus on finals should definately be a priority. Good luck!

    Jozef,
    I did read the article, but I also read the source notes at Astro.com. I just wonder what Karen means when she says she’s seen the hospital records? And I myself don’t feel confident with this chart, but I haven’t yet worked it with his biography enough to say anything for certain. My intention is not to disrespect Karen or ISAR. I’m sorry but I don’t know what ‘AA’ means?

  • Kristina says:

    A correction regarding my last Comment, Karen has NOT said she has ‘seen’ the hospital records as far as I’ve read. She had gotten the information secondhand according to the info in the source notes. Unless something has changed?

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Hey Kristina,

    Here is a list of what the different classifications of birth data mean. Osama bin Laden’s birthdata is about as far from AA as possible, probably closer to XX. Take a look: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Astro-Databank:Handbook_chapter_01

    Patrick

  • Jozef says:

    Got an email from Karen and she stands by the birth time.
    She did not see the birth record, but she got it from an impeccable source.

    She is a world class astrologer author and teacher and I have no reason to not trust her. Transiting Pluto is quincunx the ASC of this chart which is fitting (unless you don’t believe in quincunx’s….lol..)

  • Jozef says:

    I Knew Louis Rodden and have owned Astrodatabank software for years so I know the rating system. ADB got sold (rescued) a couple of years ago and are now an online service with fewer resources than they used to have. They may have just not gotten to this info yet. But either way. I trust Karen so I will treat the time as AA.

    You can do as you please.

  • Jozef says:

    And Pluto is also transiting the 8th house of that chart as well. And since the 8th is a natural quincunx to the ASC it could explain why quincunx’s show up so often death charts.

  • Patrick Watson says:

    A source coming from a respected astrologer does not an AA rating make. Joni Patry is a respected astrologer, and the time she reported on Obama before Obama released his birth certificate was a few minutes off. Why on earth would it be a few minutes off from the time clearly printed on the birth certificate? She didn’t get to look at it herself, she just said she had someone she knew on the Obama campaign take a look at it. We don’t even know if Saudi birth certificates have times on them, or printed times on them at the time of Osama’s birth. We even have different birth places reported. So to recap, we have multiple reports of conflicting birth dates, birth times and birth places for Osama bin Laden. This is rightly categorized as an XX rating until we can all get a look at a birth certificate if one exists.

    Even aside from our disagreement on the validity of the quincunx, do you seriously predict death on the basis that Pluto is transiting through the 8th house? That’s bordering on irresponsible.

  • Check out my scoop on ‘The 911 Osama Yod’. Yes it’s me The Betty with a new MO – Constance Star Hope. I added your link to my wordpress site. Glad to see you’re still here. You can follow me on twitter at: http://twitter.com/Constance_Hope.

  • Jozef says:

    Dude; Karen got the data from another respected Belgian astrologer who saw the birth data in print. That makes it AA. Clearly you are much more interested in aruging than in astrology. I am done here. Good luck to you.

  • Jozef says:

    And for the record the author of that article from ISAR and the data is from some time in early 2002.

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Jozef,

    I’m not particularly interested in arguing, I’m just trying to figure this out. With no disrespect to Karen Hamaker-Zondag, I’m just pointing out that the respect and stature of an astrologer does not necessarily mean the data is reliable. I provided an example, there are others. I would love to have the birthdata of Osama bin Laden so we can investigate it. According to ADB’s ratings rubric, Osama bin Laden’s data is correctly classified as XX until a new development arises. Excuse me for attempting to have appropriately high methodological standards for astrological research. That is after all the spirit of the AstroDataBank.

    Patrick

  • Jozef says:

    understand something like a quincunx; do your homework and research and come up with an intelligent conclusion based on what you now know, not what you have read. That’s what I did. When it comes to data; if you have an issue with it contact the person yourself, and the person who published it and ask them if it is true. That’s what I did.

    That is what an astrologer does. You can disagree with everything if you like, but unless you can supply better data or a real counter view, you aren’t really saying anything at all. As I said; I knew Louis Rodden, and I am still close personal friends with the former owner of ADB. I am stickler for data and the validity and accuracy of data. In this case we have the data, and an account of someone who saw the printed data. 2/3rds of the A data in ADB is from memory of the person and not even from printed data.

    But the most important thing is that you have no data at all, just a doubt of the existing data. This is not how science works. The onus is on you to present better data, or facts that discredit the current data. Now if you want to call Karen a liar and question her character and integrity that is up to you. And that is what you are doing when you decide your opinion is more valid than another esteemed astrologers data and word.

    I am so done with this.

  • Jozef says:

    REPOST:

    Patrick; I have given you a good astrology lesson here. When you want to understand something like a quincunx; do your homework and research and come up with an intelligent conclusion based on what you now know, not what you have read. That’s what I did. When it comes to data; if you have an issue with it contact the person yourself, and the person who published it and ask them if it is true. That’s what I did.

    That is what an astrologer does. You can disagree with everything if you like, but unless you can supply better data or a real counter view, you aren’t really saying anything at all. As I said; I knew Louis Rodden, and I am still close personal friends with the former owner of ADB. I am stickler for data and the validity and accuracy of data. In this case we have the data, and an account of someone who saw the printed data. 2/3rds of the A data in ADB is from memory of the person and not even from printed data.

    But the most important thing is that you have no data at all, just a doubt of the existing data. This is not how science works. The onus is on you to present better data, or facts that discredit the current data. Now if you want to call Karen a liar and question her character and integrity that is up to you. And that is what you are doing when you decide your opinion is more valid than another esteemed astrologers data and word.

    I am so done with this.

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Jozef,

    Chill out dude, I don’t really understand why you’re getting upset about this. I don’t know anything about Karen, I’m sure she’s a very nice lady and an esteemed astrologer like you say. No one is saying she is a liar or questioning her character or integrity, I’m certainly not. AstroDataBank is not saying Karen is a liar by rating the data XX, it just means that “The date itself is in question or there are two or more variations of the date”, and that is the case here, unfortunately.

    You’re accusing me of things that don’t really make sense to accuse me of. I’m not just being reflexively skeptical, my doubts are based on the record of various conflicting sources on the ADB page for bin Laden. I wish that it was a done deal, but alas, reality intervenes. I already said that we need to compile as thorough and accurate a chronology as possible for Osama, and then systematically compare them to the various dates we have for Osama to see which one or if one produces results consistent with the most broadly understood astrological expectations (and they will have to be broad in the cases of dates without times attached to them). I’m willing to do research to put together such a chronology. That is my contribution. That is the best I can do in absence of incontrovertible proof.

    I’ve already refuted your charge that I haven’t sufficiently investigated quincunxes so just let it go. We really got off on the wrong foot here, didn’t we Jozef?

    Patrick