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Home » Birth Data

Status of the 2012 Presidential Candidates’ Birth Times

Posted by on Sunday, May 22 201194 Comments

I have recently been going through the hassle of trying to find birth times for all the 2012 presidential candidates, and it turns out you have to know a lot of information and pay a lot of little fees to get verification about the facts on a candidate’s birth certificate. I hope this post will be useful to anyone who is interested in further pursuing the birth times of the candidates, or indeed of any person’s birth time you wish to obtain.

LAST UPDATED 1/12/2012: THIS ARTICLE IS BEING CONTINUALLY UPDATED AS NEW DEVELOPMENTS COME IN

At least in the United States, an agency astrologers should begin to become more familiar with is a company called VitalChek. It is a private company contracted by virtually all state governments nationwide, which specifically deals in records requests. It is a great service, but it is only as useful as you are thorough in your research of the person’s birth time you are looking for. Provided you have a clean criminal record (i.e. nothing that would cause a government suspicion if they were to do a background check), you need to know the person’s full name, including their middle name. You have to know if they were adopted. You have to know the names of the parents, including the mother’s maiden name. Sometimes you don’t necessarily need to know the middle names of the parents, but the more information you have helps. You have to know the date and year of their birth, and exactly what city and county they were born in. You have to be able to fax a government-issued ID of yourself to whatever state agency you’re applying to for the record. Fax. Fax?!?! Who do they think we are, sorcerers?

If/when they ask exactly what you’re looking for, say you want a verification of facts on a birth certificate, or an uncertified copy of the birth certificate. Also, if/when they ask for a reason, you have to say your reason is for informational purposes, which is absolutely true. If they ask what your relation is to the person you’re inquiring about, say none, that you are a researcher or genealogist, which is not altogether inaccurate to say. There are no laws (yet) against looking up birth times for astrological purposes but it is probably best not to mention astrology to avoid extraneous questions or judgments. It is only when the state makes no allowance for someone who is not an entitled entity (family member, legal representative, etc.) to have any access to a record under any circumstance, that no matter how much research you do, unless you persuade a family member of the person you’re inquiring about to get the record, you’re out of luck.

You also have to be patient, as even though VitalChek will be able to have access to the records you need, you will still have to deal with a bit of red tape according to the unique frustrations of whatever state bureaucracy you are dealing with. You also have to have a good amount of money, as there are many seemingly purposeless fees, and VitalChek makes a killing as a middleman. As you will see, I actually have enough information on candidates that come from states with fairly reliably recorded birth times to have a fairly decent shot of getting a birth time – if only I could afford to order it. If you can help me out with some of these costs, you’d get a big shoutout here on the PAB, and I personally will make you some cookies and give you a hug. Maybe. The final thing you have to keep in mind is that even when you go through the entire process of verifying facts on a birth certificate, you may come up short, and unfortunately that is a process I recently had to go through.

Birth Times of the Presidential Candidates

I will present the announced and presumed candidates for 2012 in alphabetical order, along with the status of their birth time as well as all the information that we’d need to have or are missing about them that we would need to get access to a birth certificate. I reference ADB’s list of birth certificate policies in each state quite a lot, you can see the entire list here, although it should probably be updated in light of the new access VitalChek has brought. I also reference ADB’s ratings system, which is explained here. This is also pretty dry material so I embedded a few jokes here and there. So far, Haley Barbour, Mike Huckabee and Mitch Daniels are out, so here is who is left:

Michele Bachmann

  • Full name at birth: Michele Marie Amble
  • Born: April 6th, 1956, Waterloo, Iowa, (Blackhawk county), unknown time, ADB rating: X Update 7/13/11: Bachmann’s birth time is 12:08 but it is unknown whether it is am or pm, see here.
  • Father’s name: David John Amble
  • Mother’s maiden name: Jean Johnson
  • Notes on certificates in Iowa: The instructions on how to order certificates online, over the phone or in person, can all be found here. Ordering through VitalChek would cost at least $28.00, not counting S&H or other unpredictable fees. ADB’s notes on Iowa certificates: “Time from 1905, time records unstable“. So a certificate may or may not have the time on it.
  • Reason why we’ll never get it: Iowa does not allow any facts on a birth certificates to be verified for informational purposes. Entitled entities only.
  • Remaining options: A quote or a certificate from Bachmann herself or someone in her family, or perhaps medical records if we knew what hospital she was born in?

Status: Not Good, Update 6/27/2011: Maybe Good, Not Great, Update 6/29/2011: Not Good, Update 7/13/2011: SO CLOSE

UPDATE 6/27/2011: I found this article written by Jeff Reinitz for the WCF Courier in which he states he saw her birth certificate for himself.

Bachmann was born in Waterloo in 1956, and her birth certificate is on file at the Black Hawk County Recorders Office. The copy is tucked away in a faded green 6-inch-thick hard-cover tome on the second floor of the courthouse on page 104 along with birth certificates of three other people. Anyone can look at the book and take notes, but copying birth certificates is only allowed for relatives, a recorders office staff member said. The “Certificate of Live Birth” states that Michele Marie Amble — her maiden name — was born April 6, 1956, at Allen Memorial Hospital. It lists her mother by her own maiden name, Arlene Jean Johnson. She was 24 at the time and born in Mason City. The father is David John Amble, then 26, a native of Adams, Minn. His occupation was “student” at Iowa State Teachers College, the predecessor of the University of Northern Iowa. The family home at the time was 210 E. Ninth St., Waterloo. The birth certificate was signed by Dr. Howard P. Treichler.

The only thing that is discouraging about this is that he gives all the information that is on the birth certificate except the time, which may suggest that it happens to be an Iowa birth certificate that did not record the time. I’ve emailed Mr. Reinitz to inquire if the time was on the certificate he saw, and if there was, what it is. This also shows us that the Astro Data Bank’s list of US birth certificate policies by state needs some updating, because based on that I thought the birth certificate was completely inaccessible, yet Mr. Reinitz was able to access it himself. This might provide a ray of hope for other birth certificates we are trying to get a hold of, as they might not be so locked up as we currently know. So, this is either the best lead we could possibly get if the birth time is there, or a dead-end if it turns out the time was not printed on the birth certificate. Cross your fingers and I’ll let you know as soon as he gets back to me!

UPDATE 6/29/2011: Bachmann’s birth time is NOT printed on her birth certificate. After corresponding with Jeff Reinitz, he double-checked the certificate which did not have the birth time on it:

Patrick, I double checked the birth certificate yesterday, and it doesn’t contain the time of birth. There isn’t a box/line to enter that information in the forms used the 1960s in Iowa. Out of curiosity, I also checked random birth certificates from the 1990s and 2002. Those do record the time of birth.

Additionally, we should probably rule out looking up her medical records for a birth time because as Reinitz explains:

Yeah, I really doubt the hospital is going to produce any of her records without her signed approval. These days, because of health privacy laws, we can’t even get a hospital to confirm a gunshot victim or car accident passenger is at the hospital unless the patient agrees.

So our remaining option is asking Bachmann herself, either directly or through a campaign worker or someone in her family. If none of them know, we won’t ever get a birth time for Michele Bachmann. Many thanks to Jeff Reinitz for checking up on this for us.

UPDATE 7/13/11: Bachmann herself has revealed that her birth time is 12:08, but she does not say whether it is 12:08 am or pm. Read here in a new article for the details: Michele Bachmann’s Birth Time Revealed…Sort Of

Herman Cain

  • Full name at birth: Herman Cain
  • Born: December 13th, 1945, Memphis, Tennessee, (Shelby county), John Gaston hospital, unknown time, ADB rating: X
  • Father’s name: Luther Cain Jr.
  • Mother’s maiden name: Lenora Davis
  • Notes on certificates in Tennessee: You can find out how to order certificates here. Ordering through VitalChek would cost $30.00. ADB’s notes on Tennessee certificates: “Time inconsistently recorded”.
  • Reason why we’ll never get it: I already ordered a verification of facts from Cain’s certificate through VitalChek. It just so happened that Tennessee did allow me to get access to the information on the certificate for informational purposes once I was able to produce all the information above, as well as fax over a copy of my government-issued ID blown up 200% so they could perform a background check. Oh and I had to pay $30.00. Maybe that doesn’t seem much to you, but it’s a lot for me when I am dirt-poor. There was also the chance, that in the event I had given them any inaccurate information, that even if they had a birth certificate for Herman Cain, that I would receive a letter saying “No record found”. In the mail, I received a letter from the Tennessee Department of Health’s Office of Vital Records where a clerk had copied down information from the birth certificate. Everything had been filled in, EXCEPT for the birth time, where the clerk had written “N/A”. This can only mean that the time was simply not printed on the birth certificate, otherwise the clerk would have copied it down onto the verification form like s/he did for all the other information.
  • Remaining options: Cain or someone else in his family might know, but apparently both of his parents are deceased. There may possibly be records from the hospital he was born at, but John Gaston hospital is unfortunately defunct.

Status: Not Good

Newt Gingrich

  • Full name at birth: Newton Leroy McPherson
  • Born: June 17th, 1943, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, (Dauphin county), Harrisburg hospital, tentatively 11:45 pm, ADB Rating: DD
  • Father’s name: Newton Searles McPherson
  • Mother’s maiden name: Kathleen Daugherty
  • Source notes on tentative birth time:  ADB: “Frances McEvoy quotes “a telephone call to his office gave the information that he was born just before midnight according to his mom.” Eleanor Kimmel sends a clipping that reads, “Delivered in the middle of the night…after a labor of 24 hours.” Daniel Giamoria quotes the family for 3:00 AM (3/95).”
  • Notes on birth certificates in Pennsylvania: ADB: “Time inconsistently recorded. Access restricted. Pennsylvania birth times are confusing and may be recorded in standard time even though daylight time was in effect. The PA Time Project is under construction by Amanda Owen: [email protected], to investigate the morass of confusion from county to county.” Great. Instructions on ordering birth certificates in Pennsylvania can be found here. If you were to order it through VitalChek it would cost at least $20.00.
  • Reasons why we’ll never get it: Access is restricted to immediate family members.
  • Remaining options: Medical records from Harrisburg hospital, a copy of the birth certificate provided by Gingrich himself, although there would be no guarantee that there would be a time, or that it would even be accurate. If there was a time printed on the certificate which somehow corroborated the two sources which suggest he was born close to midnight, it would give those sources more weight. Of course, a time on the certificate could also completely contradict those accounts.

Status: Not Awful, Not Good

Jon Huntsman

  • Full name at birth: Jon Meade Huntsman Jr.
  • Born: March 26th 1960, Redwood City, California, (San Mateo County), unknown time, ADB Rating: X
  • Father’s name: Jon Meade Huntsman Sr.
  • Mother’s maiden name: Karen Haight
  • Notes on birth certificates in California: ADB: “If you do not have a legal right but want a copy of a California birth certificate, you can receive a copy, with complete information, so long as you mark your request “For informational purposes only.” Write to the Sacramento office for birth certificates of adopted children regardless of where in California the birth occurred. Records kept from July 1, 1905; prior to that, county records. Time usually recorded.” Now this is more like it! Information on ordering birth certificates from California can be found here.  If you order the the certificate through VitalChek it will cost at least $25.00.
  • Reasons why we’ll never get it: Virtually none! The only reason we don’t have Jon Huntsman’s birth time is because a person deeply invested in getting it (me) is totally broke! Make a name for yourself, be the quoted source on ADB, pay the fee and order the certificate and spread the knowledge for the benefit of the astrologically curious!

Status: Very Promising

UPDATE 6/16/2011: Jon Huntsman’s birth time has been confirmed as 11:58 am. Read all about it here! Status updated to: “Excellent!”

Gary Johnson

  • Full name at birth: Gary Earl Johnson
  • Born: January 1st 1953, Minot, North Dakota, (Ward county), unknown time, ADB Rating: X
  • Father’s name: Earl W. Johnson
  • Mother’s maiden name: Lorraine B. Bostow
  • Notes on birth certificates in North Dakota:  ADB: “Records kept from July 1, 1893, but may be incomplete. Time may or may not be recorded. Access possible.” Information on ordering certificates in North Dakota can be found here. It can’t actually be ordered through VitalChek, but you can do it directly through the agency as long as you provide identification. The fee is just $7.00. Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like you can get it without being a family member, unless you wrote on the application “for informational purposes only”. It also appears we will need to know what the middle names of his parents are in order to complete the birth record application.
  • Reasons why we’ll never get it: If it’s not on the birth certificate, which it appears it either may or may not be, we’re out of luck. Still, chances are actually not bad that his birth time is obtainable.
  • Remaining options: A quote from Johnson or his family, or medical records if we knew what hospital he was born in.

Status: Not Too Bad Actually

Fred Karger

  • Full name at birth: Fred Karger
  • Born: January 31st 1950, Glencoe, Illinois, (Cook County), unknown time, ADB Rating: X
  • Father’s name: Robert S. Karger
  • Mother’s maiden name: Jean Foreman
  • Notes on birth certificates in Illinois: ADB: “Time given in standard time from 1916 but not consistently and not in every hospital. The prevailing time was legally used since April 29, 1959. Access restricted. (Romy Ransom writes, “You can get the B.C. if the person was born 75 years or more ago (death records for 20 years and more ago), as they fall in the genealogy category.)”.“. In other words, it doesn’t look good. You can find out more information on ordering birth certificates in Illinois here.  If you ordered it through VitalChek it would cost at least $18.50.
  • Reasons why we’ll never get it: Only relatives and legal representatives have access to the certificate.
  • Remaining options: Karger releases the birth certificate himself, or a quote from his family, or medical records if we knew what hospital he was born at.

Status: Not Good

Barack Obama

  • Full name at birth: Barack Hussein Obama II
  • Born: August 4th 1961, Honolulu, Hawaii, (Honolulu county), Kapiʻolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital, 7:24 pm, ADB Rating: AA
  • Father’s name: Barack Hussein Obama Sr.
  • Mother’s maiden name: Stanley Ann Dunham
  • Oh screw it, we have Obama’s birth certificate already, short AND long form, moving on!

Status: Awesome

Ron Paul

  • Full name at birth: Ronald Ernest Paul
  • Born: August 20th, 1935, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, (Allegheny county), unknown time, ADB Rating: X
  • Father’s name: Howard Paul
  • Mother’s maiden name: Margaret Dumont
  • Notes on birth certificates in Pennsylvania: See Newt Gingrich above. Same issues with restricted access, unreliability of birth time recording, as well as accurate birth recording. Over VitalChek, it would cost at least $20.00 to order.
  • Reasons why we’ll never get it: Know any Paul relatives?
  • Remaining options: Paul publishes his own birth certificate or otherwise gives us a quote. It would be sort of ironic that as a doctor he has personally delivered hundreds of babies, yet wouldn’t know the exact time of his own birth.

Status: Pretty Bad

Sarah Palin

  • Full name at birth: Sarah Louise Heath
  • Born: February 11th, 1964, Sandpoint, Idaho, (Bonner County), approximately 6 pm, ADB Rating: DD
  • Father’s name: Charles R. Heath
  • Mother’s maiden name: Sarah Sheeran
  • Source notes on time: Unsourced times are documented on ADB’s page about Sarah Palin. Here on the PAB we have the story about a sourced time for Palin, albeit still an imprecise one, you can read all about it here. The 6 pm time comes from an article written by Marianne Love in which she references a birth notice in the Sandpoint News Bulletin held in the Bonner County Museum. Only problem is there is no way to know if it is a general time frame, whether it has been rounded up or down, or if it is actually an exact time.
  • Notes on birth certificates in Idaho: ADB: “Records kept from July, 1911; prior to that, County records. Time of birth seldom given. Access possible from county of birth.” Information on obtaining birth records in Idaho can be found here. If you order through VitalChek it would cost at least $23.50. You also have to specify that your reason is for “Genealogy/Family History” and that your relationship to Palin is “Other”>”Researcher”.
  • Reasons why we’ll never get it: No guarantee that the birth certificate has a birth time on it.
  • Remaining options: Ask Palin herself if she knows, although it has already been attempted. A good friend of mine, Jim Notto, endured waiting hours in line at a Palin book signing in Minnesota so that he could ask her directly if she knew her birth time. “I think she heard my words but that they didn’t really register; must have confused her by asking something she hadn’t already heard 1000 times already. She just responded with a smile. Weird. I only got about 4 or 5 seconds in front of her before I was prodded along.” It’s probably worth another try in future.  There may also be medical records if we found out what hospital she was born at.

Status: Not Awful, Not Good

Tim Pawlenty

  • Full name at birth: Timothy James Pawlenty
  • Born: November 27th, 1960, Saint Paul, Minnesota, (Ramsey county), unknown time, ADB Rating: X
  • Father’s name: Eugene Joseph Pawlenty
  • Mother’s maiden name: Virginia Frances Oldenburg
  • Notes on birth certificates in Minnesota:  ADB: “Records kept from January 1, 1908; prior to then, county records. Time given from 1908 until recently; now omitted. Request a non-certified birth certificate if you are not the individual or have no legal right to the information. Be sure to state that you need the time of birth. Romy Ransom writes, “Minnesota is one of those states that is or has gone to a statewide computerized system. So you can go to any county vital records office in the state and get the birth certificate for anyone born in that state. The only problem with this is that when the people inputted the birth information into the system they may or may not have put the time of birth into the system as well. What I suggest people do is call the county where the person was born (because it takes less time to get the birth certificates from the county than it does from the state office) and tell them you need a non-certified copy of the original birth certificate which includes the time of birth. The last time I checked the county offices still had the original birth certificates in their possession. The woman I spoke to did not know when those would be sent to the state vital records office. A non-family member can only get a non-certified copy.” Sweet! To get the uncertified copy of a birth certificate (the only kind they will let you get for informational purposes) go here for the state office, or here for the county office.  It will cost at least $13.00 in either case.
  • Reasons why we’ll never get it: This might not be so difficult to get actually. This would be a great birth time to get because Tim Pawlenty is fairly young, and if he doesn’t make it this time he could be a candidate again in the future.
  • Remaining options: Pawlenty releases the birth certificate himself or otherwise gives a quote about when he was born. I’m fairly optimistic that his time could be retrieved though.

Status: Not Too Bad Actually

Rick Perry

  • Full name at birth: James Richard Perry
  • Born: March 4th 1950, Paint Creek, Texas, (Haskell County), unknown time, ADB Rating: X  Update 8/17/2011: 10:40 am, ADB Rating: A
  • Father’s name: Joseph Ray Perry
  • Mother’s maiden name: Amelia June Holt
  • Notes on birth certificates in Texas: Texas Vital Statistics, Dept of Health Records kept from January 1, 1903. Time recorded from 1917. Access restricted except for records prior to 75 years ago. $33.00 through Vitalchek.
  • Reasons why we’ll never get it: Perry was born in a town so small it is unincorporated. It is not known where his birth certificate would be stored. Besides that, records are restricted, although if we were able to get ahold of it, there is a time on the certificate.
  • Remaining options: Asking his family, orchestrate an Ocean’s 11-style heist, break into the vital records office with style and retrieve the birth certificate to a smooth lounge jazz soundtrack.

Status: Great, if we could get it!  Update: 8/17/2011: GREAT, although it would be nice to see the birth certificate for ourselves

Update 8/17/2011: We now have Perry’s birth time! I was alerted in the comments by Carole Devine that Lynn Koiner had posted something which was sent by Steve Stuckey who knows Raul Davila, an astrologer in Texas.

Astrologer Raul Davila, who lives in Texas, has managed to come up with
Rick Perry’s time of birth. The time is 10:40 AM and birthplace is
Haskell, Tx.

He was born at the Haskell Memorial Hospital. Haskell is 10 miles from
Paint Creek.

So complete data is: March 4, 1950 @ 10:40 AM CST, in Haskell, Tx.

I have written Raul a personal note to try and confirm the exact source
of this time, so I will have more on this later today.

The announcement was made at Aug 13 2011
Charleston, SC
1:29 PM ET

Steve Stuckey

And then the follow-up email:

Raul just got back to me on this and said that he called over to the
County Clerk’s office this morning and a clerk there read the
information to him over the phone from the birth certificate in hand.
Wow, I wish every County Clerk’s office was that accommodating!

Exact coordinates for the hospital: 33N 09 47 and 99W 44 41

So there we have it! It is usually NEVER that easy!

Buddy Roemer

  • Full name at birth: Charles Elson Roemer III
  • Born: October 4th, 1943, Shreveport, Louisiana, (Caddo parish), unknown time, ADB Rating: X
  • Father’s name: Charles Elson Roemer II
  • Mother’s maiden name: Adeline McDade
  • Notes on birth certificates in Louisiana: ADB: “Records kept from July 1, 1914; earlier in New Orleans. Seldom have the time, more likely to record times after 1950. Records available prior to a hundred years back. Access restricted.“. Good thing Roemer’s campaign looks like its going nowhere, because prospects for a birth time look pretty bad as well. It is possible to get an “informational purpose”-only uncertified copy of the birth certificate, but you still have to be an entitled entity. It would still cost you $22.45 over VitalChek.
  • Reasons why we’ll never get it: Louisiana sucks when it comes to birth records, bested only by Pennsylvania.
  • Remaining options: Roemer releases his own birth certificate, but honestly, he’s lucky he even made my list, most major news outlets aren’t even covering him.

Status: Awful/Who Cares

Mitt Romney

  • Full name at birth: Willard Mitt Romney
  • Born: March 12th, 1947, Detroit, Michigan, (Wayne county), 9:51 am, ADB Rating: A
  • Father’s name: George Wilcken Romney
  • Mother’s maiden name: Lenore LaFount
  • Source notes: ADB: “Frances McEvoy quotes him; PT notes that on June 24, 2007 the Boston Globe ran a feature article quoting his father for 10 AM“. What Boston Globe article was that? The other problem with this is that Frances McEvoy has been an unusually prolific source for birth times of prominent people, and had been known to inaccurately rectify times. Chris Brennan discusses this precise issue in this article about the problems with birthdata for the candidates of the 2008 election.
  • Notes on birth certificates in Michigan: ADB: “Access restricted. Records kept from January 1, 1867; Detroit records from 1893. Time given from 1906-1949 and 1968-present; no times on birth records from 1950-67.”. Yeah, it’s not looking good, but not totally bad either. Romney’s birth squeaked in before they stopped recording birth times altogether, but then again we have no access to that birth record. More information on obtaining birth records in Michigan can be found here. Even if you were able to order a certificate on VitalChek for Romney, it would cost $44.50.
  • Reasons why we’ll never get it: Michigan is very much a closed records state.
  • Remaining options: Hope that birther fervor makes Romney publish his birth certificate. And again, if we knew the hospital, there may be medical records, but it is doubtful. There is also the chance that Romney could be asked again, and if he said 9:51 am again, McEvoy could be vindicated.

Status: Not Too Bad, Could Be Worse, Could Be Better

UPDATE 5/27/2011: I found the Boston Globe article here. The relevant quote is:

“Dear Folks,” [George] Romney wrote on the letterhead of the Automobile Manufacturers Association, where he served as general manager, “Well, by now most of you have had the really big news, but for those who haven’t, Willard Mitt Romney arrived at Ten AM March 12.”

The difference between 9:51 am and 10 am is luckily negligible in this case, as the Ascendant doesn’t change signs. I think I’ll update the status of Mitt Romney’s birth time to “Pretty Good“.

Rick Santorum

  • Full name at birth: Richard John Santorum
  • Born: May 10th, 1958, Winchester, Virginia, (Frederick county), unknown time, ADB Rating: X
  • Father’s name: Aldo Santorum
  • Mother’s maiden name: Catherine Dughi
  • Notes on birth certificates in Virginia: ADB: “Records kept from January 1, 1853. Time recorded from June 1912. Access restricted.“. More information can be found about obtaining birth records in Virginia here. Even if you were able to order it through VitalChek, it would cost $32.75.
  • Reasons why we’ll never get it: We’re not related to Rick Santorum. Un/fortunately.
  • Remaining options: Santorum publishes his own certificate, we get a quote from him or his family, or get access to medical records.

UPDATE 1/12/2012: I ordered Rick Santorum’s newspaper birth announcements from the Handley Regional Library in Winchester, Virginia. Unfortunately, both birth announcements from the Northern Virginia Daily and the Winchester Star did not include a time of birth.

  • Winchester Star, May 12th 1958, pg. 6:

Births/May 10: To Dr. and Mrs. Aldo Santorum, Martinsburg, W.Va., a boy, Richard John. Mrs. Santorum is the former Miss Catherine Dughi.

  • Northern Virginia Daily, May 13th 1958, pg. 2:
Births at Winchester Memorial Hospital: Dr. and Mrs. Aldo Santorum of Martinsburg, VA Center, are receiving congratulations on the arrival of a son, Richard John, on May 10 in Winchester Memorial Hospital. Before her marriage Mrs. Santorum was Miss Catherine Eileen Dughi.
Well, at least this rules this option out. We’ll still need a family member connection at this point.
Status: Still Sucky

Recap

  • Candidate(s) whose birth times we have for sure: Barack Obama, Update 6/16/2011: Jon Huntsman,
  • Candidate(s) whose birth times we have but are less certain about and need more verification: Newt Gingrich, Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney, Update 7/13/11: Michele Bachmann, Update 8/17/2011: Rick Perry
  • Candidate(s) whose birth times appear to be fairly easily accessible: Jon Huntsman
  • Candidate(s) whose birth times appear to be accessible with some effort: Gary Johnson, Tim Pawlenty
  • Candidate(s) whose birth times appear to be impossible quests barring an unlikely development or important connection to the candidate or the candidate’s family: Michele Bachmann, Herman Cain, Fred Karger, Ron Paul, Rick Santorum, Rick Perry
  • Candidate(s) whose birth times we could care less about: Buddy Roemer

If you know a candidate will be appearing in an area near you, PLEASE try to ask them “what time during the day were you born?”! Bonus points if you record it on video. Please tell us and we will give you a big shout out and make sure you are properly credited on AstroDataBank. If you have about $25 to spare I would love you forever if you ordered Jon Huntsman’s uncertified birth certificate, I literally have no money of my own right now and it’s an easy one to get! And of course if you hear about any tip about the other candidates please contact us at the bottom of our About page here. Birth times are just that important to astrology.


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Patrick is an astrologer originally from High Wycombe, England. His personal practice is based on a blend of ancient and modern astrology. He is a member of the Association for Young Astrologers.




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94 Comments »

  • [...] Featured Article » Status of the 2012 Presidential Candidates’ Birth Times Sun, 05/22/11 – 23:45 | No Comments Yet [...]

  • Twilight says:

    Thanks for this post, Patrick – useful info all in one place.
    Huntsman hasn’t confirmed yet whether he’ll run (I think)- but once he does, I feel sure some well-heeled pro-astrologer will obtain his time of birth. If not, and we’re still without it in a week or two, I’ll empty my piggy bank and do the necessary. ;-)

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Thank you very much Twilight!!

  • Judith says:

    Really appreciate your work! My friend and I plan on trying to get Hunstman, Bachmann and Pawlenty. I thought I saw a reference on the internet that Bachmann was asked for her birth certificate and refused, anyone seen that reference. Will let you know if we succeed.
    Judith

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Thank you Judith! I can’t believe I hadn’t heard that about Bachmann! I just googled around and apparently she had promised to release her birth certificate before the first debate. The first debate was technically on May 5th but it included candidates who hadn’t even officially announced. In March, media outlets figured they might as well jump the gun and ask her office for her birth certificate. After the humiliation that befell Trump when Obama finally released his long form birth certificate, Bachmann seems to say the issue is settled and is backing away from it. The next debate is June 13th. Still, that’d be awesome if she released it so we can get that time, because otherwise it looks like it will be very difficult.

  • Twinny says:

    What about Ron Paul?

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Hey Twinny, Ron Paul is on the list, between Obama and Palin.

  • Twinny says:

    Sorry Patrick, I never saw that.

    It’s a shame you cannot get a birth time for him as I would love to see his chart since he is a such a rare breed of politician i.e. one who cares for the people rather than the banks and corporations.

  • Patrick Watson says:

    It wold be great to have his birth time. It wouldn’t be totally impossible to get at least a quote from him. He’ll be touring around a lot of cities, it requires a bit of initiative. You have to get to an event where he’s speaking, get to the handshake line and try to ask him.

  • [...] Featured Article » Status of the 2012 Presidential Candidates’ Birth Times Sun, 05/22/11 – 23:45 | 9 Comments [...]

  • Suzy says:

    Here is Jon Huntsman’s Birth Info:

    There is a photocopy of the Birth Certificate if you go to the link. It’s from a reporter for the Salt Lake City Tribune.

    Article and Link:

    Huntsman’s birth certificate: Born in the USA

    The Salt Lake Tribune
    Published: May 3, 2011 02:01PM
    Updated: May 3, 2011 01:01PM

    After facing repeated questions about his birthplace, President Barack Obama last week released his long-form birth certificate to quiet so-called “birthers” and prove that, yes, he was born in America.

    Obama then turned it around on Saturday, joking at the White House Correspondence Association annual dinner that former Utah Gov. Jon Huntsman Jr. — who just returned from 18 months as the U.S. ambassador to China and is weighing a presidential bid — might have something hidden about his past.

    “Now, there’s something you might not know about Jon,” Obama cracked. “He didn’t learn to speak Chinese to go there. Oh no. He learned English to come here.”

    Of course, Obama hasn’t turned into a Huntsman birther — at least not that I’m aware of. But it just so happens I recently requested a copy of Huntsman’s birth certificate from the San Mateo County, Calif., clerk’s office in case any questions came up about where Jr. was born.

    Let the record show: Jon Huntsman Jr. was born in Palo Alto, Calif., just before noon [11:58 a.m.] on March 26, 1960 to Jon and Karen Huntsman, who were both 22 years old at the time. Both parents are “white,” according to the birth certificate, and Huntsman Jr. was born in an incorporated city, not a farm. It did take 10 days for the Huntsmans to file the birth documents with the local registrar.

    And, as you can tell by the image below, the birth certificate I received is actually a “certificate of live birth”; Obama had released his “certificate of live birth” during the campaign, though it didn’t quell the critics’ concerns.

    I guess we’ll see if anyone wants Huntsman to fetch his long-form record or whether this will suffice.

    http://www.sltrib.com/csp/cms/sites/sltrib/pages/printerfriendly.csp?id=51742597

  • [...] Featured Article » Status of the 2012 Presidential Candidates’ Birth Times Sun, 05/22/11 – 23:45 | 11 Comments [...]

  • [...] Featured Article » Status of the 2012 Presidential Candidates’ Birth Times Sun, 05/22/11 – 23:45 | 12 Comments [...]

  • Patrick Watson says:

    THANK YOU SO MUCH! New post up about it!

  • Suzy says:

    Patrick,

    You are most welcome…and I can’t wait to see what his Birth Chart turns up for prospects for 2012! It might be fascinating if he becomes the Republican Nominee to see how it might fit in that election to go along with what our current President has in his own chart at that time. And, also how he fits in with the rest of the candidates we already know who have declared their runs.

    Peace!

    Suzy

  • Carol says:

    I think anyone running for public office should present a copy of their birth certificate and have it available to anyone who wishes to see it. That’s why they are called public figures.
    I can’t see why it is such a secret.

  • Patrick Watson says:

    The real trick would still be to get every state to record birth times on the birth certificates, otherwise open birth certificates would still be importantly lacking for astrologers.

  • [...] Featured Article » Status of the 2012 Presidential Candidates’ Birth Times Sun, 05/22/11 – 23:45 | 18 Comments [...]

  • [...] Featured Article » Status of the 2012 Presidential Candidates’ Birth Times Sun, 05/22/11 – 23:45 | 19 Comments [...]

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Amazing find Robert, I will update ASAP

  • Robert Blumberg says:

    If Michele Bachmann’s 12:08 birth time is correct, I believe 12:08 am is more likely. It would place the Jupiter/Pluto conjunction in her 8th house (other people’s money), which fits well for someone who has proven to be very successful at fundraising.

  • [...] Featured Article » Status of the 2012 Presidential Candidates’ Birth Times Sun, 05/22/11 – 23:45 | 23 Comments [...]

  • Lynn Koiner sent a notice in her “tidbits” that Rick Perry’s time is 10:40 am CST in Haskell, TX. It came from someone who called the office of vital records, asked for it, and whoever answered looked it up for him. I’ll try to find the email if you want the name of the person who called.

    There is also a technique from (I think) Ken Gillman in determining an am or pm birth. I think it’s called the 18/24 rule, but again, I’d have to dig a little to find it.

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Hey thanks a lot Carole, it would be great to find out who made the call so I can make an update!

  • Lynn posted this sent by Steve Stuckey: (she followed with the story of how Raul Davila called for it)

    Astrologer Raul Davila, who lives in Texas, has managed to come up with
    Rick Perry’s time of birth. The time is 10:40 AM and birthplace is
    Haskell, Tx.

    He was born at the Haskell Memorial Hospital. Haskell is 10 miles from
    Paint Creek.

    So complete data is: March 4, 1950 @ 10:40 AM CST, in Haskell, Tx.

    I have written Raul a personal note to try and confirm the exact source
    of this time, so I will have more on this later today.

    The announcement was made at Aug 13 2011
    Charleston, SC
    1:29 PM ET

    Steve Stuckey

  • Here is the follow up email:

    Raul just got back to me on this and said that he called over to the
    County Clerk’s office this morning and a clerk there read the
    information to him over the phone from the birth certificate in hand.
    Wow, I wish every County Clerk’s office was that accommodating!

    Exact coordinates for the hospital: 33N 09 47 and 99W 44 41

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Wow that’s brilliant! No office is usually like that! Great! Done and done!

  • Twilight says:

    Thanks, Patrick, Carol and Raul – that’s one important piece of info for a candidate we’ll probably be seeing a lot of…..unfortunately. ;-)

  • Thank you for putting this all in one place for us, Patrick.

    I look forward to your insights and am so excited to see that a group of young astrologers has formed! I cannot wait to see what you do.

    Best to everyone,

    Love & Light,
    Michele Avanti CAP
    facebook.com/michele.avanti

  • [...] at Haskell Memorial Hospital in Haskell, Texas (Haskell is 10 miles from Paint Creek, Texas). See link here for the source of Perry’s birth time. See Perry’s birth chart [...]

  • Jackie says:

    Thank you so very much for putting all this together!

    Huntsman: the main article says Palo Alto, Santa Clara County. Yet the BC says Sequoia Hospital, Redwood City, San Mateo County.

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Thanks for spotting that! I’ll make the change.

  • [...] her birth time is 12:08, however she did not specify whether she was born in the A.M. or P.M. (see link here for details). Regardless of a birth time shortly after midday or midnight, there is plenty to [...]

  • [...] said, “but this one [the drive-in on West Main] was the first, and it’s sort of special.”Charlie Watson started his chain of burger places in Denison on Main Street across from the high sch…/restaurant/watsons-drive-in/watsonburger007/" rel="attachment wp-att-1094">[/caption] Watson [...]

  • Hello Political Astrology Hounds,

    Back in the late 1980’s I ran charts at Henry Weingarten’s New York Astrology Center (around 13,000, by my estimate), and the question of no-birth-time-on-the BC came up quite often.

    ALL states have, by law, REQUIRED times of birth, for at least a full century.

    HOWEVER, the common birth certificates the registrars handed out, until fairly recently, NEVER had the time on them. No space for the time. These were ABSTRACTS, not the complete record.

    If you wanted the time, you had to specifically request the Long Form, Full Record, Black and White, or whatever it was called in your state. This required the registrar to physically go back into the archives and sort through dusty old records. They hated this, which might be why the system changed ten or 15 years ago. Chalk one up for astrology if so.

    The full record has the father’s full name, the mother’s name at birth, their sexes, their addresses, their races, the weight at birth and many other useful details.

    I had thought this was known, but it seems that each generation must renew what it knows, in order that known things stay known, to paraphrase a former Secretary of Defense.

    I hope this is helpful.

    David R. Roell

  • Yes, you have to ask specifically for a “photostat of the birth record” to get the long form. And you pay for that.

  • Thank-you, Carole !

    Dave

  • [...] Romney was born at 9:51 am on March 12th 1947 in Detroit, Michigan to George and Lenore Romney. George Romney was a rising star in the automotive industry at the time [...]

  • Thank you for this research. It reminded me to run the released Obama chart. Comparing Gingrich, Romney and Cain to the USA chart, it looks to me like Gingrich will be a big influence, if not a winner, in this.

    Note the new Obama chart gives him Asc/MC and Moon/Sun at 8 cardinal, opposite each other. Any aspect between these midpoints gives a life a shape and destiny, and in this election, Pluto is transiting 8 Cardinal, HARD. Cain has Neptune and Moon in opposition at 8Cardinal, and Pluto will be squaring.

    Gingrich doesn’t have 8 Cardinal empowered at this time, but he matches the USA Natal chart as well as Obama does — battle of the titans no matter if Gingrich is an overt candidate. He’ll matter.

  • [...] Featured Article » Status of the 2012 Presidential Candidates’ Birth Times Sun, 05/22/11 – 23:45 | 40 Comments [...]

  • Lynn bell says:

    It’ wonderful to see the astrological detective work. I want to echo David roell’s comment. In Illinois records ordered from the county do not show the birth time. It is only by writing, not email, to the state capital, Springfield, that you can get copy of the birth certificate with the time I want to add that writing directly may be less expensive.

    In France,A colleague has 20,0000 paper copies of birth certificates in his apartment.his name is Didier GESLAIN.
    Best, Lynn

  • Update on Obama:
    I’ve been puzzling over his birth data ever since some astrologer swore he was born at 1:07 pm and that she had seen the BC itself. (Remember?) A month ago in my newsletter I did an analysis of the official time and although you can’t prove anything with astrology, I thought it unlikely that Barack Hussein Obama is the name of the man sitting in the White House.

    For several years I have been of the opinion that “Barack Obama” is a case of fake ID, and I think I have the means for proving it, if anyone in Hawaii wants to do a bit of legwork:

    The final hint was given by the recent flap over James Randi’s companion. Randi, now in his 80’s, was a stage magician famous for his “I-hate-the-paranormal” stuff back in the ’80’s. The head of the CISCOPS, the bane of Michel Gauquelin, etc., etc. His companion, Jose Alvarez, was recently arrested and charged with identity theft. It came to light when the real Jose Alvarez applied for a passport.

    So here’s the deal: A black baby is born to an irresponsible white mommy, who gives it up for adoption. Did you know the Kapi‘olani hospital, in Honolulu, runs its own adoption agency? (Well, of course. It was founded as a home for unwed mothers.)

    Upon being given to the agency, the birth records are sealed and the child given a new name. Did you know? This is standard with adoption, that mother and child are permanently separated. It takes a court order to unseal the records, which is very rarely done.

    Well then, how to find the REAL Barack Obama? Very simple: He was very likely the only black kid in the orphanage, and he very likely stayed there until he joined the military (probably the Navy) around the age of 18. Which would be around 1980. If he is still alive (the real Obama has an early death marker in the 8th), he himself has no idea who he really is.

    So, go to the Kapi‘olani foster home (or whatever they call it) and look through the old records and photographs. You’re looking for a black male born in August, 1961. Presuming the records are not “missing”, it shouldn’t be hard. And though you won’t be able to “prove” it without a court order, he should be the real Barack Obama.

    So who is the President? Some smooth talking Chicago kid. (NOT Kenya!) Why do you suppose he was given a second, secret Oath of Office? (There is no video of it.) Because someone didn’t want problems if the real Obama ever turned up. Because if I can figure it out, the FBI did the same years ago, and the story has been all over DC.

    The only trap door in the entire adoption program is that if you know the birth name of a child given up for adoption (the daddy bragged about his accomplishment?), you can, one way or another, go to the state records office and claim that ID as your own, safe in the knowledge that the individual himself will not and cannot do so. In other words, adopted children have birth ID’s that are “up for grabs”.

  • Roxana Muise says:

    I just heard that AFAN had an update to Sarah Palin’s birth time:
    4:40 PM from her birth certificate.

  • Patrick Watson says:

    Hi Roxana, do you have a link to that? Greg DeLaCastro originally put out a time of 4:40 pm appeared to be baseless, based on a non-existent Wikipedia entry. If the birth certificate says 4:40 pm, then Palin’s birth announcement in the Sandpoint News Bulletin was inaccurately recorded as 6 pm.

    http://politicalastrologyblog.com/2009/12/22/sarah-palins-birth-time-discovered/

  • Hello Patrick
    Enjoy your website, I have been working with astrology for the last 28 years and do readings and hold a class every Wed in my home with a group of several students and I know Roxanna Muise, who I am reading just above me here: Sarah Palin We rectified her chart to come up with 4 40 pm as well!!! Sure fits her, but then again…we keep trying…I think it fits her pretty darn well And yes, she won’t go far anymore..her days are numbered in regards to any major political race. We are continuing to work on Mitt Romney’s chart this next 2 weeks…Thanks for all you do and will keep in touch
    Arlene Tognett and the astrology group of Kent Washington

  • I posted a discussion about Romney’s birth time on my blog at http://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2011/12/29/mitt-romneys-birth-chart/

    My conclusion is that McEvoy probably used his 1968 accident in France to rectify the chart to 9:51 AM, and I think it’s best to stick with the father’s written record of a 10 AM birth time.

  • Arizona Sue says:

    AS I SEE IT…((Hope it’s OK with you if I make some observations on the charts…if not just trash it, I will understand,:o))
    In regards to Newt Gingrich,

    The ruler of the chart is Aquarius, and we find it conjunct Mercury in the 3d in Gemini. There is no doubt this is a brilliant mind and teacher here. With Saturn and the Sun also in Gemini in the 4th, no wonder he writes books on American history,,,,very 4th house stuff. Adding to this, is the Jupiter in Cancer, he brings this love of home and patriotism innately with the talents. Being in the 6th house it is a duty for him to foster and teach the love of country et al. He has a strong sense of duty to any endeavor he tackles and with the passion of Venus (women’s help) in the 6th. The North Node in Leo on the 7th beckons him to leadership in partnerships and organizations. However the Neptune in the 7th reveals the hidden deceits in partnerships….which we all know led to two divorces, due to, shall we say?? Anyway, The Mars in Aries is a strong placement for a man…..zoom ahead, answer questions later. This applies to his talents and resources as well. Mars in the second can attest to impetuous moves with money, which we know there have been some of those. His moon in Sag is opposing his Sun and squaring his Neptune……clearly his Achilles heel has been on public display….. He is a philosophical, smart, articulate go getter. Saturn so close to the Sun and being his oriental planet assured he learned a lot from early life hard knocks. He carries the need to be responsible into everything.

    With Pluto transiting his 10th, it should be interesting to see what new structures are in store for for his career. Jupiter in Taurus, well?,,,,, he should a least sell a bunch of books!

  • HorizonScanner says:

    Your belief in BHO aka Barry Soetoro’s birth certificates undermine your credibility.

    Kenya didn’t exist when these certificates were purportedly typed.
    Neither did, “African-Americans”.

    Plus, these documents can be deconstructed using commonly used word document editing software. This deconstruction is easily available on World Net Daily.

    Regardless, you insist on believing in the unbelievable because your RadLib belief system, and the influence of peer group pressure, is more important to you than your integrity as an astrologer.

  • Patrick Watson says:

    HorizonScanner,

    At first I decided not to dignify this comment with a response, but then I found it necessary to respond so that you will not have delusions of legitimacy by being ignored. So I will respond to each one of your claims in hopes that you might at least understand why I think you are wrong, even if you are not able to see it for yourself.

    “Your belief in BHO aka Barry Soetoro’s birth certificates undermine your credibility.”

    Ah yes, I have sterling credibility as an astrologer in modern times. Lol. Anyway. It is not a matter of belief that Obama was born on August 4th 1961 at 7:24 pm in Honolulu, Hawaii, it is simply an empirical truth, drawn from the overwhelmingly conclusive evidence, also known as fact. Consider the following:
    -Obama’s certificate of birth and long-form birth certificate was issued by the State of Hawaii, confirmed by the Hawaii State Department of Health as well as by the (Republican) Governor of Hawaii.
    http://factcheck.org/2008/08/born-in-the-usa/
    -2 separate announcements in local Honolulu newspapers announcing the birth of Barack Hussein Obama II on August 4th, 1961 in Honolulu, Hawaii.
    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/dailypix/2008/Nov/09/hawaii811090361V3_b.jpg
    http://qalabist.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/obamabirthstarbulletin.jpg
    -Hospital records of Obama’s mother Stanley Ann Dunham having given birth to Barack Hussein Obama II on August 4th, 1961 at the Kapiʻolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital in Honolulu, Hawaii. Obama was delivered by Dr. David Sinclair, a real doctor who has since died, but whose family still resides in Honolulu. His son, Brian Sinclair followed his father’s footsteps and is a radiologist in Honolulu.
    http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2011/04/david_a_sinclair_portland-born.php

    There are no sufficient grounds upon which to doubt that Obama was born there. I do not have to make a very big leap of faith to accept this, because of the large body of evidence. The leap of faith required to dismiss all of this however, is quite remarkable. You would have to inordinately or extremely selectively distrust the veracity and validity of even non-controversial government documents such as birth certificates, and the same for private hospital records which informed the local newspapers for their birth announcements. The list goes on. Given the amount of official and corroborating evidence and documentation, one wonders what you would actually see as legitimate proof of his birth in Honolulu. A video? Besides, even if Obama was born in a different country, his US birth certificate would say “US Birth Certificate from Abroad” across the top, which it does not. I know this, because I have one. Can you at least see why the notion that Obama was born anywhere else to be positively bewildering, as you have placed the standard for legitimacy at such an absurd height as to be virtually unreachable? And why is such a strict rubric applied to Obama so selectively, when his 2008 election opponent John McCain actually did have the more constitutionally troubling documented birth place of Panama?

    Credibility is established and maintained by adherence to empiricism, to fact, to evidence. And it all incontrovertibly points to Barack Hussein Obama II being born at 7:24 pm on August 4th 1961 in Honolulu, Hawaii. It is your position that lacks valid documentation, any actual corroboration, any real evidence and thus has no credibility. If my acceptance of a claim so well fortified by evidence and reason undermines my credibility with someone who rejects such basic standards of legitimacy, I honestly can’t lose sleep over that.

    “Kenya didn’t exist when these certificates were purportedly typed.”

    In 1961, what is now just known as the Republic of Kenya, was then the Colony and Protectorate of Kenya. So, it did exist. But even if it didn’t exist, wouldn’t that work against your hypothesis that Obama was born there?

    “Neither did, “African-Americans”.”

    I have no idea what you are insinuating, but it can’t be good.

    “Plus, these documents can be deconstructed using commonly used word document editing software. This deconstruction is easily available on World Net Daily.”

    Why not deconstruct the actual document and not just its image which can be easily manipulated? Like what Factcheck did here? http://factcheck.org/2008/08/born-in-the-usa/ The actual document itself checks out against all the various (unfounded) charges against its validity. And how can WND’s analysis of the birth certificate be trusted to be impartial or unmotivated by their opposition to Obama’s politics when they are a very well known conservative/right wing news outlet? And that’s just aside from the laughably poor charges they make.

    “Regardless, you insist on believing in the unbelievable because your RadLib belief system, and the influence of peer group pressure, is more important to you than your integrity as an astrologer.”

    I do insist on believing in the factual, evidenced and well-supported, and that is the source of the integrity of my work as an astrologer, as well as in my daily life as a person and citizen. I agree it is unbelievable, in the sense that belief is an unsupported position. How can it just be believed when there is so much evidence affirming its truth? It isn’t believed, it’s known. I don’t believe it is true, I acknowledge it is true. It has nothing to do with political ideology and all to do with philosophical epistemology. (Also, RadLib? You don’t know me very well.) Even very conservative figures such as Rick Santorum and Michele Bachmann, however reluctantly, do not contest the body of evidence supporting the time and location of Obama’s birth. Perhaps you could say that was also the result of group pressure, from voters, but that shift can only be explained by why there would be pressure from voters in the first place: because of the persuasiveness of the evidence. And not just by the virtue of the evidence, but also by the particular nature of the skeptics on this issue. Skeptical is hardly a fitting word for the so-called Birthers, because of how abundantly transparent their motivations have been: political, with a smattering of xenophobia and racism on the side. My suggestion would be that if you do not like Barack Obama’s policies, oppose them on actual grounds, instead of attempting to delegitimize his presidency via these hyperbolic, conspiratorial, delusional, baseless, and ultimately harmful and pointless distractions.

    2+2=4, and Barack Hussein Obama II was born at 7:24 pm on August 4th, 1961, at the Kapiʻolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital in Honolulu, Hawaii, delivered by David A. Sinclair to Ms. Stanley Ann Dunham and Mr. Barack Hussein Obama. If you don’t get this now, you never will. Your position has been completely and utterly debunked just now and by countless others with more authority and intellect than either of us have. That’s it. The end.

    -Patrick Watson